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Post by hylianhero on Nov 22, 2011 16:57:45 GMT -5
He helped out the bullpen every time he pitched. There was no clear front-runner in the AL. He was such a dominant force.
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Post by Commissioner (Athletics GM) on Nov 22, 2011 17:01:02 GMT -5
He didn't deserve it at all. If Verlander deserved a Cy Young and an MVP, CC should have been second in both. They were equal pitchers.
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Post by dbacksfaninga on Nov 22, 2011 17:01:35 GMT -5
I dont really have a problem with it
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Post by tcengel on Nov 22, 2011 17:05:21 GMT -5
What do you guys think of Kemp getting absolutely screwed?
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Post by rocky on Nov 22, 2011 17:09:52 GMT -5
Ask Ray =P
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Post by Commissioner (Athletics GM) on Nov 22, 2011 17:10:42 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Ray smashed his computer after hearing the result.
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Post by hylianhero on Nov 22, 2011 17:11:08 GMT -5
I think both of them deserved it.
Kemp a little more so, but I'm honestly ok with Braun.
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Post by dbacksfaninga on Nov 22, 2011 17:15:59 GMT -5
im ok with braun as well. Although i would have thought it pretty funny that a team with the MVP and Cy young winner couldnt finish higher than 3rd in a decent but not great division.
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Post by bigrazz on Nov 22, 2011 17:40:52 GMT -5
Im a Yankees fan, but CC was not even close to as good as Verlander last season. 5 more wins, era was 0.6 lower, and whip was also about 0.3 lower
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Post by Commissioner (Athletics GM) on Nov 22, 2011 17:43:30 GMT -5
Yet all three of the stats you listed have a lot to do with the teammates around them.
Wins depends on the run support you get and timely hits that your team gets.
ERA and WHIP are dependent on team defense.
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Post by bigrazz on Nov 22, 2011 17:47:22 GMT -5
And CC had better run support. And era and whip dont depend on team defense because the pitcher gets unearned runs
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Post by tcengel on Nov 22, 2011 17:53:39 GMT -5
im ok with braun as well. Although i would have thought it pretty funny that a team with the MVP and Cy young winner couldnt finish higher than 3rd in a decent but not great division. How about a nice can of SHUT UP for you!? But yeah, it's such a hollow team. Billingsley had a terrible year, Ethier was below average, and really, after he and Kemp, our line up is friggin terrible. Kuroda was very good, though.
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Post by Commissioner (Athletics GM) on Nov 22, 2011 17:57:01 GMT -5
And CC had better run support. And era and whip dont depend on team defense because the pitcher gets unearned runs The Yankees scored more runs. However, scoring 10 runs when CC allows 0 runs is creating slack and only scoring 1 when CC allows 2 runs is also useless. It's more than just total runs scored. Secondly, WHIP and ERA are dependent on BABIP and strand rate. Justin Verlander benefited from extremely good defense behind him this season. His fielders got to more balls than any other starter in the majors. It's not CC's fault that his fielders were not as good. Therefore, CC FIP > Verlander FIP How much of Verlander's BABIP was under his control? Who knows, but there is no way Verlander is a true .230 BABIP pitcher.
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Post by scottc on Nov 22, 2011 19:22:50 GMT -5
While I am as true a believer as there is in DIPS theory Dude I just find it hard to believe that an infield of sizemore/inge/betemit at 3B, peralta at SS and Raburn/etc. at 2B and Miguel Cabrera at 1B was a superlative enough unit to depress Verlander's babip that far with their "skills".
I don't think he's a true talent .230 babip pitcher either but he certainly induced an inordinate amount of weak contact this year because those fielders were not exactly turning sure hits into outs very often IMO.
Mike Fast at BP has done some really interesting work recently on angles/velocities of batted balls with hitFX data and I'd love to see that work isolated to Verlander's 2011. Unfortunately he only has data for the 2008 season right now.
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Post by Commissioner (Athletics GM) on Nov 22, 2011 19:26:05 GMT -5
We won't see any of that until HitFX is released. Let's hope it slips out like pitchFX did.
It's not the quality of the infielders that truly matter. It's just coincidence if the ball managers to land perfectly inside their range. His infield wasn't the BABIP savior though. It was the OF. He had an absurdly low BABIP on fly balls. Don't remember where I saw the exact figure but it was insane. How many of those were weak pop ups? I'm sure a few. How many of those were fly balls to the warning track that are 40 feet gone in Yankee stadium? I'm sure quite a few.
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